Face-to-face interview on 20. Dec. 2021
Email interview on 22. Jan. 2022


Interviewed by
Jeeyoung Lee, Joohee Oh


German Interpreted, translated and transcripted by
Jieun Lee


English translated by
Britcent Ltd, Seolhee Park

*This interview took place with the help of a Korean-German interpreter. The interviewer is not identified as the interpreter’s own views are transmitted during the questioning. The recordings in German were then transcribed and translated into Korean before being translated again into English. Certain parts of the interview were carried out in English over emails and only those conducted in German were transcribed.

Would you please tell me about your name, age, major and what you are interested in?

My name is Leo Busch. I am 23 come from Berlin. I left Berlin after secondary school and went to the Netherlands to study urban planning, which I finished in 2021. My program in urban planning emphasised the technical aspects and consisted mainly of how to effectively utilise urban spaces, water and natural environment. I am however more interested in how to connect urban planning with art. This is why I am planning to study for a master’s in urban design at the Berlin Institute of Technology, to be able to look at urban planning from a more social standpoint.

So, Leo, you think of urban planning in conjunction with the arts.

Yes, at some point I would like to work for an organisation that looks at cities from not only a historical, cultural, and social perspective but also in terms of aesthetics for improving the quality of life.

I am wondering if you are from Berlin and where in Berlin you are currently residing.

Yes, I was born in Berlin and grew up in a western district called Charlottenburg. I am a national of Germany but also of the United States, having an American mother. While I’ve never lived in the US, I mention it in case dual citizenship is an important factor for this interview.

Your personal thoughts on the Stolperstein?

I believe the Stolperstein is very important, deeply meaningful and also poetic. It is intimately tied to the city. In all honesty, I don’t always think about Stolperstein in my everyday life, which I think is a good thing. It means that while significant, the Stolperstein is also hidden and not hidden at the same time.

It’s because they are on the ground?

Correct. I think that’s a beautiful thing.

We are interested in the thoughts of the residents whose houses face the Stolperstein. We assume that the residents would be bothered by tourists taking photographs or leaving flowers on it or even taking pictures of the homes. While many would be unaware of the presence of the Stolperstein, we are referring to the fact that it is already known that the Stolperstein exists there.

You mean from a resident’s point of view?

Right.

What is important is that because of the innumerable number of Stolpersteine in Berlin, it would not be just one or two houses that are being photographed.

A lot of houses would be photographed.

Sure. However, despite the high number of Stolpersteine spread throughout the city, I doubt any one person would be bothered by it. In truth, nothing else ever happens in most cases other than a passing glance at them. There is one in front of the house that I live in, and I have still yet to experience anyone taking a photograph of the house or anything like that. Because they are well known and spread about all across the city, I don’t think anyone would be complaining too much about their existence.

In other words you think the Stolpersteine have become a part of everyday life? Because they are on the ground and not noticeable?

Right, being on the ground makes them special.

Have you ever heard of anyone who does not like the presence of the Stolpersteine?

I have not heard of anyone who dislikes the Stolpersteine. But then again, I’ve yet to hear of anyone who likes them particularly. Fact is, most people don’t speak of the existence of the Stolpersteine. In a positive way, it means it’s become an invisible part of everyday life. Therefore people don’t mention a particular like or dislike of the Stolpersteine.

Interesting. No lovers either haters. They are unnoticeable.

Indeed. They are unnoticeable. Most people I know think positively of it because it is a part of Berlin. As much as the sky is blue in the morning when they wake up, the Stolpersteine are there in their place in the morning. It has become such a part of daily life that one need not think about their existence.

The Stolperstein is almost like a tombstone signifying that person’s death. As someone who lives in the house in front of it, any particular thoughts or feelings?

The Stolperstein does not signify that the person died there. It means that a Jewish person lived in that house during the time of Hitler and that they were taken away against their will to face death somewhere else. To me, rather than something scary or spooky, it is something that is symbolic of the history of Berlin. The Stolperstein says that we should reflect on the atrocities of the Nazi era and that we should pay our respects. Because such a symbol exists in front of the house that I live in, I feel like I am living my life as a part of history.

Okay, I can understand the feeling living your life as a part of history.

I do not have any negative or macabre feelings towards the Stolperstein. Having discovered what I learned during my school days, I feel that I am living out a piece of history.

When did you first have an education about Holocaust? How old were you?

To be honest, I can't fully remember, but I believe I started doing small projects around third grade (nine years old). Since then, until tenth grade, the Holocaust was part of practically every year's curriculum in some form. When I was younger the topic was discussed in regards to small things a child could understand, i.e. Stolpersteine, the Memorial and increased in sensitivity and seriousness as time went on.

Which subject do you think teaches Holocaust?

Most of it was dealt with in History class, but it was touched on in Ethics and German. However, in German it was mostly through readings of Jewish authors or writers who had lived through the Nazi regime.

Can you tell me how you learned about Holocaust in class?

I remember we would watch films about the topic, when we got old enough to be able to understand their content. Before that, it was mostly just through German and History class, and maybe a visit to a museum in Berlin. I will say that a lot of my "understanding" of the Holocaust took place outside of schools, and I think it was similar for my classmates. The topic is just so engrained in everyday life, you kind of learn about it parallel to the school education.